F-Type Valves and Tappets

[RPSN]

After reading the following two posts, I’ve created this topic.

The engine does not have hydraulic lifters so the valve clearances are not within spec until the engine has warmed up, hence the tapping, I have the same thing.

The engine does not have hydraulic lifters so the valve clearances are not within spec until the engine has warmed up, hence the tapping, I have the same thing.

It should be quiet when the engine has warmed up though.

The posts are correct in saying that the engine does not have hydraulic lifters (hydraulic tappets). However, with regards to the valve clearances, they’re already in spec as stated in the TOPIx information for the V6, shown here....

“The valves are a conventional arrangement, with a valve and spring assembly retained by a valve collet. The valve tappets are graded and selected on assembly to obtain the correct valve clearance dimensions.”

and....

“The valves are opened mechanically by a bucket design valve tappet which is operated directly by the associated camshaft lobe. The valve clearance is set by selection of the appropriate valve tappet to achieve the required valve clearance.”

The tapping noise that some owners are hearing when the engine is cold (but quietens down when the engine warms up) is more likely due to the time taken for the engine oil to circulate and lubricate the camshafts and valve gear etc. In some cases where the tapping is more persistent, there could be wear on the tappets and/or camshaft lobes. This is another reason why it's always good practice to warm the cold engine up gradually for the first few miles before opening it up a bit.

I use Mobil 1 ESP X2 0W-20 Fully Synthetic and my car doesn’t have a tapping noise that’s noticeable enough to concern me. The oil used to have the appropriate JLR spec (STJLR.51.5122) but no longer does, as explained by another member on this F-Pace forum....
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/f-pace-x761-c-x17-87/engine-oil-viscosity-vs-oil-specification-stjlr-51-5122-a-254022/#post2471880
This hasn't deterred me from using it as it's a top quality oil that works well. It's also the first engine oil I've used which is green in colour!

A few times I’ve heard that the F-Type engines appear to be very sensitive to the oil used. Here’s one of them.....
https://www.ftypeforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=42690#p42690

I’ve attached the TOPIx screenshots which include the information I’ve quoted on the valve clearance. Also some pics from a 2014 V8 R, entitled ‘Camshaft Bucket Wear’.....

 

[Anonymous]

I am sure the engine was in spec at point of production.

Just to simplify this.

The v6 engine taps when cold. This is normal. The colder it is, the longer it taps for.
The tapping should be gone when the engine has warmed up. (By the time the water temp reaches normal on the gauge seems a reasonable benchmark).

 

[Anonymous]

Back in the old days before hydralic lifters started to be widely used this was normal in all engines. You have to engineer in a clearance to allow for thermal expansion, this clearance is what causes the tapping noise.

Why does this engine not have hydralic lifters? I can only speculate but probably due to performance at very high rpm.

 

[RPSN]

I am sure the engine was in spec at point of production.

Just to simplify this.

The v6 engine taps when cold. This is normal. The colder it is, the longer it taps for.
The tapping should be gone when the engine has warmed up. (By the time the water temp reaches normal on the gauge seems a reasonable benchmark).

Of course the engine was in spec at point of production!

You’ve said “the valve clearances are not within spec until the engine has warmed up”. That isn’t the case, as is clearly shown in the TOPIx info I provided.

Not sure how bad your V6 tapping is on a cold start but mine is hardly noticeable.

Back in the old days before hydralic lifters started to be widely used this was normal in all engines. You have to engineer in a clearance to allow for thermal expansion, this clearance is what causes the tapping noise.

Why does this engine not have hydralic lifters? I can only speculate but probably due to performance at very high rpm.

As you can see from the TOPIx info, the valve clearances are already in spec. The tapping noise you are hearing on a cold start is due to the oil lubrication process to the camshafts and valve gear etc as I’ve previously explained.

The engine doesn’t have hydraulic lifters because they open the valves a bit slower meaning there would be a loss in performance in a car such as the F-Type.

 

[Anonymous]

I see what you mean now, I should not have said within spec, it is within spec when cold... When warm they reach operational clearances. I should be more careful to use the correct terminology.

Not sure how bad your V6 tapping is on a cold start but mine is hardly noticeable.

Same, barely noticable, unless your stood right next to the engine on a cold start you will not notice it. But someone was asking about it which is what started the debate.

 

[RPSN]

I see what you mean now, I should not have said within spec, it is within spec when cold... When warm they reach operational clearances. I should be more careful to use the correct terminology.

Not sure how bad your V6 tapping is on a cold start but mine is hardly noticeable.

Same, barely noticable, unless your stood right next to the engine on a cold start you will not notice it.

The valve tappets are graded and selected on assembly to obtain the correct valve clearance dimensions so any operational clearances are catered for. If there’s any doubt (excess/persistent tapping noise etc) they can be checked (see attached TOPIx screenshot - V6) and if necessary adjusted.

Good to hear your car engine’s tapping noise on cold start is minimal.

 

[Tel]

I don't agree that it's the time taken for the oil to circulate to the camshafts as stated in the OP.

The oil pressure and flow with such light oil used in these blocks is almost instantaneous.

I put money on it being purely down to thermal expansion at differing rates.

Happens in every engine, the F type is no different.

The only caveat being a worn engine, where the tolerances are lost and oil really does fill the voids...fortunate if you see any reasonable oil pressure until the engine is hot and internal components have expanded to take up the slop/gaps!

 

[RPSN]

I don't agree that it's the time taken for the oil to circulate to the camshafts as stated in the OP.

The oil pressure and flow with such light oil used in these blocks is almost instantaneous.

I put money on it being purely down to thermal expansion at differing rates.

Happens in every engine, the F type is no different.

The only caveat being a worn engine, where the tolerances are lost and oil really does fill the voids...fortunate if you see any reasonable oil pressure until the engine is hot and internal components have expanded to take up the slop/gaps!

I disagree with your thermal expansion theory as not all cars are having the prominent tapping noise on cold start up.

As you can see from the TOPIx info I’ve posted, the valve tappets are graded and selected on assembly to obtain the correct valve clearance dimensions. Any operational clearances are catered for i.e thermal expansion.

I believe it’s caused by the oil lubrication process to the camshafts and valve gear etc. There have been numerous reports on how sensitive these engines are to oil spec and ambient temperature. I provided the link to this one in my original post.... https://www.ftypeforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=42690#p42690

I’m using Mobil 1 ESP X2 0W-20 Fully Synthetic and my car’s cold start tapping noise is hardly noticeable....certainly not enough to concern me!

 

[Tel]

That's because not all engines are manufactured equal, nor the wear, thereafter uniform - Some tap, some do not. And yet, they all have the same weight/spec oil.

I couldn't see numerous reports that would be evidence enough to reinforce your oil circulation theory in your quoted link.

TopIX is merely a description of a brand new engine, it doesn't explain noises, nor take into consideration wear, or how tolerances disappear as soon as the engine used and subsequently, on a daily basis, further out of spec.
As soon as the engine wears, the tolerances increase so the value of shim of a newbuild is now redundant...liken this to the old way of adjusting tappets on a conventional pushrod engine except here they are not adjusted. The owner was able to compensate for wear by means if manual adjustment.

The only thing that can fill the gap and in turn stop the tapping, is the space being filled by the warming metal which now brings the tolerance back toward (but never to) spec by way of heat expansion and effective increased size.
The above all happens irrespective of being 0 or a 5 weight oil.

The oil in these new engines is under very high pressure and reaches the camshaft areas in a matter of seconds from cold start.

The fact that JLR chose an extremely thin oil is testament to this, and reinforces my theory...they need the oil into places as quick as possible. Due to extremely tight tolerances such as buckets/tappets, need lubrication quickly that in turn, reduces wear. Thin oil though, breaks down quicker than thicker weights.
Wear starts and ticking is the result.

Most, if not all the ticking scenarios appear to shut up after the engine has warmed, the oil has been in those camshaft areas for a considerably loooooong time before the engine is warm; see below my observations directly from the ECU.

Ambient temp was 20C.
On average it takes my F-Types' engine oil 10 mins to reach 90C with really gentle driving. Water is up within approx. 6 - 8.
Irrelevant but interesting nonetheless, the ediff oil takes around 15 mins to reach 65C and higher!

Oil lube to the camshafts happens within a matter of seconds after cranking, so how on earth can we believe your theory?
...Because a post you quote mentions using heavier oil, or TopIx quotes a rose tinted view of a brand new engine without wear?
No, of course not.

This completely negates the oil lubrication theory in my books.

 

[RPSN]

@Tel

Jaguar produces engines to exact specifications and tolerances so the end product is the same/equal. Obviously, the engine wear thereafter depends on how the vehicle has been cared for. However, most F-Type owners look after their cars.

Not sure why you say the following?....

TopIX is merely a description of a brand new engine, it doesn't explain noises, nor take into consideration wear, or how tolerances disappear as soon as the engine used and subsequently, on a daily basis, further out of spec.
As soon as the engine wears, the tolerances increase so the value of shim of a newbuild is now redundant...liken this to the old way of adjusting tappets on a conventional pushrod engine except here they are not adjusted. The owner was able to compensate for wear by means if manual adjustment.

The only thing that can fill the gap and in turn stop the tapping, is the space being filled by the warming metal which now brings the tolerance back toward (but never to) spec by way of heat expansion and effective increased size.
The above all happens irrespective of being 0 or a 5 weight oil.

The TOPIx workshop manual contains approx 28,000 pages of detailed information. An example of this is the ‘Noise, Vibration and Harshness’ document (attached). Also, the valve clearances can be checked and if necessary adjusted, as shown in their ‘Valve Clearance Check’ and ‘Valve Clearance Adjustment’ documents (see attached screenshots).

As I mentioned in my previous reply, there have been numerous reports on how sensitive these engines are to oil spec and ambient temperature (do your research). The link I provided includes posts from two separate F-Type owners (V6 and V8 cars) who were experiencing the engine ticking/tapping noise until the JLR recommended oil was used. This being Castrol Edge 0W-20 which contains its patented ‘Fluid Titanium’.

Here are their posts....

https://www.ftypeforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=42690#p42690

https://www.ftypeforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=15472#p15472

In case it helps people- had a similar noise with my f type v6, by chance during a service I discovered the garage putting their stock 0w40 oil instead of the JLR certified Castrol 0w20. I played hell and they changed the oil to the recommended type; to my surprise the engine went quiet, could not believe it.
In short the engine design appears very sensitive to oil.

I too experienced a ticking / tappet sound on idle, more pronounced from cold. I had supplied the Castrol oil to my dealer last year Castrol Edge synthetic 5W30.
This week the car was in for its annual service and the dealer supplied the oil Castrol Edge synthetic 0W20, only available to Jaguar dealers. Guess what the tappet ticking has gone!
Prior to booking the car in for service I telephoned Castrol's technical department and I was surprised to be advised that the 5W30, was not recommended for the Jaguar 5.0 V8 engine.
So by being a cheapskate I suffered a ticking sound for 12 months. Make sure that your service dealer uses 0W20!!

Some will experience this and maybe not others.

I’m also using a good quality engine oil (Mobil 1 ESP X2 0W-20 Fully Synthetic) and my car’s cold start tapping noise is hardly noticeable....certainly not enough to concern me.

My oil lubrication theory still stands!

 

[Tel]

Jaguar produces engines to exact specifications and tolerances so the end product is the same/equal.

This is not true. Every engine is in fact unique; produces different heat profiles, more or less power output, etc, etc.
If they were same/equal then there would be no need for adjustment shims to be individually added at build?

Some will experience this and maybe not others.

Because every engine is different that's why. They all come out of the build shop with the same weight oil inside them.

However, most F-Type owners look after their cars.

I don't believe that to be the case as much as I'd like to believe it - Some do, so possibly don't.

Not sure why you say the following?....
Tel wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:30 pm
TopIX is merely a description of a brand new engine, it doesn't explain noises, nor take into consideration wear, or how tolerances disappear as soon as the engine used and subsequently, on a daily basis, further out of spec.
As soon as the engine wears, the tolerances increase so the value of shim of a newbuild is now redundant...liken this to the old way of adjusting tappets on a conventional pushrod engine except here they are not adjusted. The owner was able to compensate for wear by means if manual adjustment.

The only thing that can fill the gap and in turn stop the tapping, is the space being filled by the warming metal which now brings the tolerance back toward (but never to) spec by way of heat expansion and effective increased size.
The above all happens irrespective of being 0 or a 5 weight oil.
The TOPIx workshop manual contains approx 28,000 pages of detailed information. An example of this is the ‘Noise, Vibration and Harshness’ document (attached). Also, the valve clearances can be checked and if necessary adjusted, as shown in their ‘Valve Clearance Check’ and ‘Valve Clearance Adjustment’ documents (see attached screenshots).

I mentioned the above to convey the message that whilst TopIX may have many pages, you quoted 28,000, it is not the Oracle and it certainly isn't always correct.
It should be treated as a guide, no more, no less.
Consider it if you will a computerised Haynes Manual...and they were quite often wrong!

As I mentioned in my previous reply, there have been numerous reports on how sensitive these engines are to oil spec and ambient temperature (do your research). The link I provided includes posts from two separate F-Type owners (V6 and V8 cars) who were experiencing the engine ticking/tapping noise until the JLR recommended oil was used. This being Castrol Edge 0W-20 which contains its patented ‘Fluid Titanium’.

You can see then that ambient temperature influences running temperature ,which in turn has a direct impact on the tapping sounds.

Temperature (combination of Ambient plus Running) on the other hand slowly nulls the noise over the warming up period.

and ambient temperature

You are coming round to the idea that it is temperature related...perhaps?

This being Castrol Edge 0W-20 which contains its patented ‘Fluid Titanium’

Do you believe that Castrol Edge (Without reference to internet), contains Fluid Titanium?

If the oil theory was to be believed, then the whole valve train would go quiet within a matter of seconds after cranking the engine over, light or heavy weight oil correct?

But his is NOT what is happening in the real world; the tapping noise goes once the engine is warm - which is temperature related, agreed?

It doesn't take 5 minutes or so for the oil to circulate to the camshaft - would you agree?

Thanks for your advice to 'do your research' - Guilty as charged, I don't.
My opinions are largely from 4.5 decades of engineering experience and evidence gained whilst doing so.
Every day is a school day and I'm happy to be proved wrong, and I welcome a plausible debate, however yours just isn't plausible I'm afraid.

 

[Anonymous]

As soon as this topic was created (in the best of interests I'm sure) it was always going to end up in a back and forwards debate and end up in disagreements of opinion. Which is good. But based on previous topics, it gets out of hand.

As long as we are all in agreement that....

The v6 engine can tap when cold, of various different volumes (depending on the sensitivity of the listener) and this is normal.
And the tapping should be gone when the engine has warmed up. (By the time the water temp reaches normal on the gauge seems a reasonable benchmark).

 

[MajorTom]

As soon as this topic was created (in the best of interests I'm sure) it was always going to end up in a back and forwards debate and end up in disagreements of opinion. Which is good. But based on previous topics, it gets out of hand.

As long as we are all in agreement that....

The v6 engine can tap when cold, of various different volumes (depending on the sensitivity of the listener) and this is normal.
And the tapping should be gone when the engine has warmed up. (By the time the water temp reaches normal on the gauge seems a reasonable benchmark).

Brilliant summary. Nuff said!

 

[RPSN]

As soon as this topic was created (in the best of interests I'm sure) it was always going to end up in a back and forwards debate and end up in disagreements of opinion. Which is good. But based on previous topics, it gets out of hand.

As long as we are all in agreement that....

The v6 engine can tap when cold, of various different volumes (depending on the sensitivity of the listener) and this is normal.
And the tapping should be gone when the engine has warmed up. (By the time the water temp reaches normal on the gauge seems a reasonable benchmark).

The topic was created to clarify this misinformation.....“the valve clearances are not within spec until the engine has warmed up, hence the tapping", and to discuss the F-Type Valves and Tappets.

Yes, the V6 engine can tap when cold but it should quieten down as the engine warms up (many do). If it doesn’t, further investigation may be required.
I believe a main contributor to the cause of the tapping is the oil lubrication process for the camshafts and valve gear etc.

If I was concerned about a tapping noise from my car’s engine on cold start (some owners are / some aren't), for the sake of an oil and filter change (done by myself) I’d be trying the JLR approved Castrol Edge 0W-20 with its patented ‘Fluid Titanium’ (screenshot attached) which can be found here....
https://www.castrol.com/en_gb/united-kingdom/home/car-engine-oil-and-fluids/motor-oil-and-fluids-finder.html

Even more so after reading these posts from both a V6 and V8 owner....

https://www.ftypeforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=42690#p42690

https://www.ftypeforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=15472#p15472

In case it helps people- had a similar noise with my f type v6, by chance during a service I discovered the garage putting their stock 0w40 oil instead of the JLR certified Castrol 0w20. I played hell and they changed the oil to the recommended type; to my surprise the engine went quiet, could not believe it.
In short the engine design appears very sensitive to oil.

I too experienced a ticking / tappet sound on idle, more pronounced from cold. I had supplied the Castrol oil to my dealer last year Castrol Edge synthetic 5W30.
This week the car was in for its annual service and the dealer supplied the oil Castrol Edge synthetic 0W20, only available to Jaguar dealers. Guess what the tappet ticking has gone!
Prior to booking the car in for service I telephoned Castrol's technical department and I was surprised to be advised that the 5W30, was not recommended for the Jaguar 5.0 V8 engine.
So by being a cheapskate I suffered a ticking sound for 12 months. Make sure that your service dealer uses 0W20!!

 

[Tel]

The topic was created to clarify this misinformation

Unfortunately misinformation started with Post #01, below:

The tapping noise that some owners are hearing when the engine is cold (but quietens down when the engine warms up) is more likely due to the time taken for the engine oil to circulate and lubricate the camshafts.

I'm all for information sharing, but information needs to have some factual weight behind it before a cut, paste and quoting exercise which appears to be a new fad on the forums.

Some people that just read and choose not to chime in and discuss, could be wrongly put off by unfounded comments from owning an F-Type, lets not let the forums degenerate into a farcical Facebook group please.
With factual, correct information, forums can be the historical handbook for years to come.

Notwithstanding human error of course

 

[RPSN]

Unfortunately misinformation started with Post #01, below:

I'm all for information sharing, but information needs to have some factual weight behind it before a cut, paste and quoting exercise which appears to be a new fad on the forums.

Some people that just read and choose not to chime in and discuss, could be wrongly put off by unfounded comments from owning an F-Type, lets not let the forums degenerate into a farcical Facebook group please.
With factual, correct information, forums can be the historical handbook for years to come.

Notwithstanding human error of course

Yet another misleading post from you!

As you’ve mentioned ‘misinformation’, ‘unfounded comments’ and ‘human error’ and ‘not let the forums degenerate into a farcical Facebook’, I invite anyone to look back through your posts in this topic. Also, with regards to ‘factual, correct information’, I have provided information from TOPIx and CASTROL, however you still seem to think you know better! Furthermore, you can’t seem to accept comments from other members I’ve quoted regarding their experience with the engine tapping noise.

Again, my theory on the oil circulation still stands which can be seen throughout this thread .....

The tapping noise that some owners are hearing when the engine is cold (but quietens down when the engine warms up) is more likely due to the time taken for the engine oil to circulate and lubricate the camshafts and valve gear etc. In some cases where the tapping is more persistent, there could be wear on the tappets and/or camshaft lobes. This is another reason why it's always good practice to warm the cold engine up gradually for the first few miles before opening it up a bit.

I believe it’s caused by the oil lubrication process to the camshafts and valve gear etc. There have been numerous reports on how sensitive these engines are to oil spec and ambient temperature.

Yes, the V6 engine can tap when cold but it should quieten down as the engine warms up (many do). If it doesn’t, further investigation may be required.
I believe a main contributor to the cause of the tapping is the oil lubrication process for the camshafts and valve gear etc.

If I was concerned about a tapping noise from my car’s engine on cold start (some owners are / some aren't), for the sake of an oil and filter change (done by myself) I’d be trying the JLR approved Castrol Edge 0W-20 with its patented ‘Fluid Titanium’ (screenshot attached) which can be found here....
https://www.castrol.com/en_gb/united-kingdom/home/car-engine-oil-and-fluids/motor-oil-and-fluids-finder.html

Even more so after reading these posts from both a V6 and V8 owner....

https://www.ftypeforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=42690#p42690

https://www.ftypeforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=15472#p15472

 

[Tel]

Quoting information from companies or previous posts does not add any value to your oil circulation theory.

You are still incorrect, no matter what manual or company you quote.

The tapping sound that folk hear is determined by temperature or as the engine warms, not time taken for the oil to reach and circulate and lubricate the camshafts.

If it were lube, then 90%, of the engines would be scrap metal within a matter of months.




If anyone cares to chime in and give me a sanity check I'd be grateful .

 

[RPSN]

If anyone cares to chime in and give me a sanity check I'd be grateful

That can quite easily be arranged!

Let's agree to disagree on this one so that the thread can continue without interruption!

 

[elugelab]

Out of interest, shouldn't this be a problem with the V8 as well? The head design is identical of course.

From my perspective it isn't anything to be concerned about, just in case that isn't clear for anyone reading this. It's common for engines to do this - my BMW B58 does the same and it's a 2014 design of engine. It's just a thing they do.

 

[RPSN]

Yes, it also applies to the V8 as you can see from earlier in the thread.

It’s nothing to be concerned about providing the tapping quietens after the oil has circulated and the engine warms up. However, some have reported that the JLR approved Castrol Edge 0W-20 has reduced/stopped the tapping noise.

With regards to it being a common issue, my BMW E46 straight-six petrol engine doesn’t do it.